Will the Russian aid convoy to Ukraine enter without Ukrainian government permission?
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Mickey Pierce, Paranoid Dyslexic Topic ManagementProposed result: Yes it will cross without permission. ...more
- 10 years ago
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maria Luisa SIMPSON-1
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Mickey Pierce, Paranoid Dyslexic Topic ManagementProposed result: Yes it will cross without permission. ...more
- 10 years ago
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Mickey: "what happens to it now is irrevelant, in my opinion"
I have a different opinion, let me explain why.
1. I always read the "stopped by force" answer option to mean that all or part of the convoy would be stopped somewhere **after** crossing on the Ukrainian border but **before** reaching its destination, the people in need.
2. For the Kiev government to stop the lorries by force **before** crossing, would (by logic) require Kiev troops operating on Russian national territory to destroy the aid convoy. I never would have thought that a sensible meaning as it is tantamount to declaring war on Russia..
So I also think we should wait for the full outcome. .It cannot be long now till we know for certain.
...more- 10 years ago
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so how long do you propose is a legimate time period to allow to pass before an attack on the convoy or on part of it is irrelevant to this particular question. I myself understood ''stopped by force'' to mean just that, if the convoy attempted to cross the border after being told they couldnt do so then Ukraine could either stand by and do nothing or stop it by force, the fact that the convoy did not sneak over the border and was in view of Ukraine government while crossing to me means they declined to deploy force to stop it , which in view of the question is about as unambiguos an answer as one could hope for. Did Ukraine know the convoy was crossing the border ? Yes. Did they no before the convoy made it all the way to its intended destination? Yes. Did they have the means and the oppertunity to deploy force to halt the convoy in its tracks? Yes. Did Ukraine deploy force to stop the Russian aid convoy from crossing its border? No. I feel it a clear cut answer to the question in question.
...more- 10 years ago
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Proposed result: Yes it will cross without permission. ...more
- 10 years ago
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I am not sure what is going on there. The highly reputable Guardian Newspaper reported yesterday that "The first trucks in a vast Russian aid convoy have cleared customs at a rebel-held border point in east Ukraine and are poised to move further into the country"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/21/russ…
How can they say a day later that the cleared trucks have not cleared? Is there another case of Ukaine sending contradictory messages? Most importantly, it is premature to settle this question, as even force may still be deployed.
...more- 10 years ago
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Günther Fädler-0
Hm, interesting.
The linked article mentions a "rebel-held border" - was it therefore not cleared by ukraine-officials? I cant find statements of officials in that article.
Today Theguardian also reports about the statement of Mr. Nalyvaichenko that there is no permission by the ukrainian government:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/22/russ…To better wait with the settlement of this question could be a good catch if the convoy entered in a rebel controlled area and ukraine forces attack later on.
...more- 10 years ago
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Günther Fädler-0
Some trucks seem to be already in Luhansk:
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"Interfax news agency said later that the first trucks had reached the rebel-held city of Luhansk."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/22/us-ukra…- 10 years ago
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Re "not cleared by ukraine-officials" - well yes, officials. According to yesterday's Guardian article anyway, the 58 border guards were Ukraine government border guards. And the Red Cross was present during the checks. See fourth last paragraph to the bottom.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/21/russ…- 10 years ago
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http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/first…
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surely the joke is over... its already back home! this question is over... in my opinion- 10 years ago
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Did Ukraine know the convoy was crossing the border ? Yes.
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Did they no before the convoy made it all the way to its intended destination? Yes.
Did they have the means and the oppertunity to deploy force to halt the convoy in its tracks? Yes.
Did Ukraine deploy force to stop the Russian aid convoy from crossing its border? No.
I feel it a clear cut answer to the question in question.- 10 years ago
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Edited wiki....more
A German newspaper confirms an office Red Cross statement about an agreement reached.
- 10 years ago
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Time magazine says "all trucks back". I have not checked other sources but will support Mickey's proposal.
http://time.com/3166682/russia-ukraine-trucks-put…
And, by the way: The Times article is a very interesting piece on the increasing semblance of governments' "humanitarian" media storylines from West to East. Nothing new under the sun, though: "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" ... even when there are no horses involved. Replace [Danaos] with whatever, these days.
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